Jul 04
Motive Behind All Religious Conversions
enart.cankaoziliao.comLike commercial franchise operations and multi national corporations buying out ground in every single corner of the world, some organized religion organization are applying the same corporate strategies to buy out customers to propagate their agenda.
The world over, the Islamic and Christian missionaries are selling hard their wares and the innocent, weaker segments of societies fall in their traps.
The question ?
Is Conversion ethical ?
Is Conversion a political scam well planned to win geo political gains ?
Is conversion an attempt to homogenize the world like burger king and McDonald ?
What do you say?
In an open letter to Pope John Paul II, Swami Dayananda Saraswati has requested him, on behalf of the ``non-aggressive religions'', to put a freeze on conversions and create conditions in which all religious cultures can live and let live.
Welcoming the Pope to India, a country with a unique religious culture which accommodates many religious traditions, the noted scholar of Hindu theology says the Pope can play a significant role in defusing religious conflicts and preserving the world's rich cultures.
The letter says, ``I am appealing to you here to accept that every person has the freedom to pursue his or her own religion.'' On the basis of reason, says the letter, no non-verifiable belief is going to fare better than any other non-verifiable belief. According to reason then, there is no basis for conversion in matters of faith.
A second important issue: some religions convert, some do not. Among the latter, non-aggressive, ones are Hinduism, Judaism and Zoroastrianism. Religions committed by their theologies to convert are necessarily aggressive, since conversion implies a conscious intrusion into the religious person.
``Religious conversion destroys centuries old communities and incites communal violence.'' In many, religion is woven into the fabric of culture so destruction of a religion amounts to the destruction of a religious culture. ``The Mayan, Roman and many other rich cultures are all lost forever and humanity is impoverished for it.''
In any tradition, it is wrong to strike someone unarmed. Since certain religions and cultures do not convert, attempts to convert them are one-sided aggression. ``We don't believe in conversion, even though certain Hindu organisations have taken back some converted people. Thus conversion is not merely violence against people, it is violence against people who are committed to non-violence. In converting, you are also converting the non-violent to violence.''
Protest against religious conversion is branded persecution because the argument is that religious freedom is curbed. But the other person also has the freedom to practise his or her religion without interference. ``Religious freedom does not extend to having a planned programme of conversion.''
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Now that doesnt mean somebody else has to take his decision.
But I think as Hindus we should look at the causes of such mass conversion and instead of being defensive, we should launch awareness campaigns instead of election motivated rathyatras that dont make sense.
Today our media is unable to project the real story so we hardly can expect much from them. But if we make a systematic approach like this great site as an initiative, we can build a mass movement that can have far reaching results.
What we need is to know the vulnerabilities of our own people and educate them about our own faith and culture.
Muslims and Christians do not sell merely their faith but also ship with it full scale cultural set that is politically motivated even though it is not sold as such.
I think it is time we build up a critical mass to create an initiative to educate our masses. How do we do that, that is the question.
If the concept of freedom of choice has to have any value then the choice has to be made within the set boundaries of social propriety and decency otherwise it becomes a joke. And that is exactly what the FREEDOM TO CHOOSE ONE’S OWN RELIGION has become.
Fifteen years ago one could find many Anils, Sunils and Ashas cleaning Mumbai’s gutters. They are still doing it but now they have changed their names to Josephs, Jacobs and Marys. What is shocking is that their children Ryans, Seans and Julies have also opted for the same profession. So what have these people gained by changing their religion?
The problem is not the religion or the caste but rather education and poverty. One cannot better ones soco- economic position by converting to a foreign religion. He needs education and opportunities. The misssionaries should be forced to make this disclaimer while attempting to convert people and if they don't, then the conversion should be considered a fraudulent one and the people responsible should be jailed.
BTW, Avoice and Ranu, good posts.
Caste is an unfortunate reality in India and I realise that we need to be rid of it. But conversion is certainly not the answer. Any attempt to convert people needs to strongly condemned
BTW, nicer post this time.
Every individual is different. Society cant decide whats right or wrong for any individual person. Noone except our own self should have the right to choose whats wrong or right. Its like moral policing then isnt it?
What i am saying is that who is anyone to question to the intelligence of a choice made by any individual.
As long as conversion is not forced and its by free will i think its ok. You cant ban conversion.
Example: Militants or mafia use mobile phone technology for all the wrong reasons. so do we then ban the whole technology and start blocking every call thinking it might be anti national?
I dont know if the example is making a lot of sense but what i am saying is that Banning is not the solution. We must have a system to check forceful conversions. If its not forced , its ok.
Live and let live
Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!
6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spiri t impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.
4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of
Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."
3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.
2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.
My Take:
1. This is childish-monkey business of Christianity. It is devastatingly false and incredibly stupid. It is highly questionable and totally-unacceptable.
2. One does not have to be very smart, to believe this kind of non-sense and imposing-stupidity.
3. Unfortunately, this stupidity, deception and deceit, has been unleashed to hundreds of millions of simple folks ( the Christians ). The weak-minded, empty-headed Christians cannot see the hollowness, inside the drum of Christianity, and are totally unable to extirpate themselves, out of recklessly-illogical & moronic-Christianity.
Surinder Paul Attri
1. The resemblance is remarkable, it is so exceptional that, it is World-Class.
2. The wandering soul of evil and black-hearted Ravana, resides inside Unprincipled-Karunanidhi, and treads on his heels, from street to shrine.
Surinder Paul Attri
My heartiest greetings on the occasion of Dusshara, the day of triumph of sat over asat.
Did you warch SONIA, Manmohan offer Arti to Ram? This is limit of hyporacy.
Shridhar Pant
My Take:
1. Shridhar Pant Jee:
Thanks.
My Dussehra Greetings to you as well as to other Hindus of the world !
Dussehra is the occasion to celebrate the Triumph of Good over Evil, the hallowing- commemoration of Lord Ram‘s victory over Ravan.
Hindus must keep their faith in the truth and strength of their Hindu-Dharma.
2. Hindus must look at the world as it is, and not as they would like it to be. The Rogue-Ideologies ( the so-called Religions ) of Islam/Christianity, want to establish their Islamic/Christian Empire at every place on earth. Hindus must confront these Rogues head-on, backed by force. These Rogues understand force, and the consequences of force, when used against them. Hindus must resolve:
“ No Retreat, No Surrender. “
3. VHP’s idea of raising Dharm-Yodhas is Perfect and Precise. Yodhas must be recruited in thousands and hundreds of thousands, to be effective, and the recruits must be thoroughly-trained. They must be supported by the financial resources of the Hindu. The Yodhas must be passionate about defending Hinduism, and destroying Islam/Christianity, they must enjoy doing their job, and give abundant parcels of hell, to both Islam and Christianity..
VHP must find people, who have the ability to raise tons of Hindu money. The Yodhas must Not have to worry about their upkeep and maintenance. It is the job of us Hindus, to assure their upkeep and maintenance. It goes without saying that Hindus will have to put their money where their mouth is.
4. No, I did not watch either Sonia ( the great opportunist/hypocrite ) or the PM ( the rubber-stamp PM ). I do not waste my time, on characters like Sonia or the PM, unless I have nothing better to do.
Surinder Paul Attri
One reason is caste and untouchability. So till Anil is from a XYZ religion he is sub divided into a particular caste and treat likewise and not as just another human being doing routine stuff. When the same Anil gets converted into a Joseph, the untouchability is gone and can lead a better daily life doing the same chores he always did.
And plus they get lucrative schemes to convert; hence you see an Anil is now a Joseph. The vote bank politics is also to blame. Anil's son might never get a job but Joseph's son would get free education as well as a job thanks to our own Indian government.
Instead of providing education and health primarily for local needs and life-styles without urban bias and religious bigotry our government plays caste politics. This is not about the present UPA government but all the governments in the past. I haven’t seen the will and the motivation in any establishment.
So is our government machinery simply dumb and unable to see the reality or are they doing it on purpose?
Good question.
Please understand, there is no society or state or religion, custom, caste or class above man. Man created/creates all of the above to serve him. He is the master of everything he creates. He should not reduce himself to be slaves of things he creates for his peaceful social life. Life is about sharing. It is about giving and taking. Every normal human being is designed to live that way. And that's how we all live our lives, like it or not.
We share our ideas and beliefs with each other. Be it in the form of words, visuals, products or services. Be it in the form of customs, practices, norms or mores. We take what we need and refuse to take what we do not need or what we do not like. But all of us have equal right to choose the life we want to live and decide to live our lives the way we want to, as long as you don't kill someone or steal other's material belongings.
Let's not live in a fool's paradise by spreading hatred against people who disagree with your ideas of god and worship. Let's not brand other's inferior and worthless just because they differ with your opinions and spiritual ideas and sensitivities.
Remember God created each and every creation you find on the earth. if someone shares his views and ideas about god with you, why shouldn't he have the right to do that? you can't deny him that right. you have the right to disagree or agree with him. examine his views and weigh then intellectually. it's cheap and cowardly to go around blindly condemning religious ideas that have come from middle-east or any other parts of the world, for that matter. It's wrong to blindly glorify one's own things and beliefs to be the only absolute and unquestionable ones in this world.
Please turn inwards and discover the human being within you. The world will become a better place for yourself and others, if you do that.
The answer, then, is not in religious conversion so much as in streamlining the system of reservations itself. While this system has gone a long way to better the economic status of India’s 82 million Scheduled Castes and Tribes, it has lost its direction because it is not envisioned as a time-bound program. The earlier beneficiaries and their progeny continue to enjoy its privileges even after half a century. These privileges are now passed on to the second and sometimes to the third generation. Families who have reaped the full benefits of the Indian government’s reservation policies have already advanced in both social and economic terms. And they continue to corner desirable jobs and university or school admissions through the reserved quotas.
Hence, the poorest sections of the same reserved categories are denied their due. It is not uncommon, especially in rural India, to find poor and illiterate Scheduled Caste workers serving as the bonded laborers of their rich and influential kinsmen. An insidious caste system has thus crept into dalit circles as well. Privileged members of the community do not many of those doing menial jobs, since they consider them inferior. A few years ago, the Indian government reduced the opportunities of dalits further by extending reservations to other backward castes. And lately the government in New Delhi has extended reservations in promotions to those who have already benefited by its policies. Consequently, almost every caste is seeking the "backward" tag to claim a piece of the pie.
No wonder this poorest and most backward segment of India’s population is constantly exploited: by politicians for their votes; by religious leaders for their numbers; by their self-styled advocates for power. Despite much touted policies of compulsory primary education, there are no proper school facilities for dalit children, Family planning and other health-care programs rarely reach dalit women. Illiterate, impoverished and vulnerable, the Scheduled Castes cannot even reach the jobs that are earmarked for them because they are not qualified.
These crucial issues are completely ignored by their champions, who prefer to harp on caste discrimination and religious conversion rather than take the real measures that might improve dalits’ lives.
I have gone through What is there? It is a commercial site. I could not understood the purpose and relevance of the site here.Whether it is jest only?
Like commercial franchise operations and multi national corporations buying out ground in every single corner of the world, some organized religion organization are applying the same corporate strategies to buy out customers to propagate their agenda.
The world over, the Islamic and Christian missionaries are selling hard their wares and the innocent, weaker segments of societies fall in their traps.
The question ?
Is Conversion ethical ?
Is Conversion a political scam well planned to win geopolitical gains ?
Is conversion an attempt to homogenize the world like burger king and McDonald ?
What do you say?
Why people succumb to it is a question to which one should give serious attention. Prima facie it does not appear good as long as Hindus converting to other religion but appears to be good when it is otherwise .The argument is Hindus does not compile or force of allure for converted. But how allure or inducement or thereat attract people is again ignored. Hindu Mandirs saints and other organisations generate huge money but never spent on general public,health and education. We have several unproductive activities. It is slur on Hinduism. Do constructive work and see people will join and stand united. I have written more elsewhere. Kindly peruse.
Also how do you define forced? Is fraudulent conversion a type of forced conversion? Then I believe most of conversions can be regarded as forced. Because no religion is better than the other and if I have to convert someone from one religion to the other then I have to make some sort of a derogratory statement towards his former religion (which btw,is also a crime) or offer him some bribe for converting or hide some aspects of the new religion from him.
I realise you wish to make a distinction between forced and willfull conversions but even in a willfull conversion you will have to read some book,listen to some sermon, attend some meeting to know that the new religion is better than the old one. And all these methods will apply some type of fraud (as mentioned in the above para)to convince you. Besides it is such a thin line (between willfull and coerced) that it will impossible to frame a law for it. Such a law would be more likely to misused and will be a case of the cure being worse than the disease.
Since conversions are not banned outrightly by the constitution, the hindus are having to seek different ways to protect their religion. The new law by the MP government is a type of defensive action. It has not outrightly banned conversions but it is making things difficult for misssionaries to convert people enmasse. But as i said earlier this is bound to lead to harrasement of innocent people. The proper thing to do is to ban conversions all together.
Anchor is perfectly right in saying it is individual's choice. It should be free from threat ,promise or inducement. Those who feel that no conversion to other religion should be made should see that the fraternity is properly protected. We are only interested in building shrines and arranging discourses. What is the contribution of all Shankaracharya? Have they living contact all over India? How they impress common Hindu public. How Hindu organisations are helpful to them. Barring few examples nothing is happening. All philosophy , views and thinking is least useful for Hungary Hindu and uneducated Hindu. Hindu leaders should change their attitude,behavour and boosting. We Hindus do not allow even Hindu ladies to enter shrines and if non Hindu enters shrine it is being cleaned. What a shameful thing. What is the difference between Muslims and Hindus. When the then P.M. A.B. Bajpai visited Pakistan he visited one shrine and it was cleaned after he left. Very bad. Hindus should have open mind in this respect.We discriminate with so called reserved class .Why ? They are also human beings and they should be respected as Hindus and should not be seen with contemptuous eyes. What we are doing will not solve any problem India wants mental peace also. Let us live in calmnessand mental peace.Make India stronger. [purushottam]
Using taxpayer’s money to buy Muslim votes
Ravi Shanker Kapoor
The hallmark of the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) Government is its propensity and enthusiasm to confuse remedies with maladies. Nowhere is this confusion as conspicuous as on the issue of minorities (read Muslims).
The Government shows considerable solicitude for the Muslims. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, in his address on Independence Day, 2005, said, “We will also revise and revamp the Fifteen Point Programme for Minorities. The new Fifteen Point Programme will have definite goals which are to be achieved in a specific time frame.” Then there is also the Sachar report which, if implemented, would keep the community perpetually mired in obscurantism, mullahdom and backwardness.
Consider a few features of the Prime Minister’s Fifteen Point Programme. The Fourth Point is: “The Central Plan Scheme of Area Intensive and Madarsa Modernization Programm provides basis educational infrastructure in areas of concentration of educationally backward minorities and resources for the modernization of Madarsa education. Keeping in view of importance of addressing this need, this programme will be substantially strengthened and implemented effectively.”
Now let’s see what great things the madrasas (and mosques) are doing in our country. India’s Task Force on Border Management, in its report of October 2000, wrote about the ominous developments along the India-Nepal border: “On the Indo-Nepal border, madrassas and mosques have sprung up on both sides in the Terai region, accompanied by four-fold increase in the population of the minority community in the region. There are 343 mosques, 300 madrassas and 17 mosques-cum-madrasas within 10 kilometres of the border on the Indian side. On the Nepal side, there are 282 mosques, 181 madrassas and eight mosques-cum-madrassas. These mosques and madrassas receive huge funds from Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Kuwait, Pakistan and Bangladesh. Managers of various madrassas and ulema maintain close links with the embassy officials of those countries located at Kathmandu. Financial assistance is also channelized through the Islamic Development Bank (Jeddah), Habib Bank of Pakistan and also through some Indian Muslims living in Gulf countries. Pakistan’s Habib Bank, after becoming a partner in Nepal’s Himalayan Bank, has expanded its network in the border areas including Biratnagar and Krishna Nagar. It is suspected that foreign currency is converted into Indian currency in Nepal and then brought to India clandestinely… Madrasas and mosques on the Indo-Nepal border are frequently visited by prominent Muslim leaders, Tablighi Jamaats (proselytizing groups) and pro-Pak Nepali leaders. Officials of Pak Embassy have come to notice visiting Terai area of Nepal to strengthen Islamic institutions and to disburse funds to them. Pro-Pak elements in Nepal also help in demographic subversion of the Terai belt.”
The madrasas in other parts are part of the same pattern. For instance, The Pioneer quoted a Muslim cleric, Maulana Rehan Ahmad, of the Madrasa Faizul Ulum Hathishala in Laxmi Nagar, near Delhi Police headquarters in August 2005, saying, “Khuda himself has determined the punishment (sazaa) of the Kafir. It is to reside forever in hell (jahannum), burn in fire… [with] all kinds of horrors there. [Jihad is waged on non-Muslims after] he is invited to join the faith (din ki dawat), asked to place his faith on Allah, when he does not do so, then at that moment the hukm for jihad is given.”
The Mushirul Hasans and the Javed Akhtars would fiercely contend such interpretations of jihad; they would argue that jihad means internal, spiritual purification, that such spiritualistic interpretation is ‘true.’ Unfortunately for them, and for us, most Muslims believe in the versions of Islam as taught by the clerics like Maulana Rehan Ahmad. And it is these versions that are taught in madrasas.
The Sachar report, the most disgraceful and mendacious document produced in India in this century, is typically in a denial mode. Despite a mountain of evidence to suggest that madrasas are factories producing jihadis, it says: “Madarsas, through which the Community ensures that its future generations acquire knowledge of Islam, have become a symbol of Muslim identity in India. Often they are looked upon with suspicion by the wider society, despite the fact that they are involved in providing religious education to the Muslim community. Labeling of Madarsas as a den for terrorists is extremely worrisome for the Muslim community. Even though there has been no evidence to suggest that Madarsas are producing terrorists they are constantly under scrutiny.”
Notice the ostrich-like attitude: “no evidence to suggest that Madarsas are producing terrorists…” The Sachar report’s recommendations on madrasas could not have been more appalling and frightening. It wants a “provision of ‘equivalence’ to Madarsa certificates/degrees for subsequent admissions into institutions of higher level of education. Flexibility should be introduced so as to enable Madarsa graduates to move across to regular mainstream education after graduating from these institutions, if they so wish. In other words the opportunity should be made available to them, especially in courses where admission is done through an entrance test/ competitive examination.”
The Sachar report also favors “Recognition of the degrees from Madarsas for eligibility in competitive examinations such as the Civil Services, Banks, Defense Services and other such examinations. The idea is to facilitate a process whereby Madarsa graduates too have a choice and an incentive to participate in these employment streams. This should, however, remain within the existing framework of these competitive examinations.”
The report, therefore, not only recommends induction of incompetence in government and semi-government jobs—for madrasa students can scarcely be considered competent—but also tries to ensure that the administration and the public sector become infested with potential jihadis. And all this at our own expense!
In fact, the UPA regime’s entire effort to woo Muslim votes is at the expense of the taxpayer. The Swarnjayanti Gram Swarojgar Yojna (SGSY) is the primary self-employment programme for rural areas. According to the Fifteen Point Programme, “A certain percentage of the physical and financial targets under the SGSY will be earmarked for beneficiaries belonging to the minority communities living below the poverty line in rural areas.” Similarly, the Swarnjayanti Shahary Rohgar Yojna (SSRY) consists of two major components namely, the Urban Self-Employment Programme (USEP) and the Urban Wage Employment Programme(UWEP). “A certain percentage of the physical and financial targets under USEP and UWEP will be earmarked to benefit people below the poverty line from the minority communities.”
The UPA regime’s eagerness to appease Muslims has eclipsed its own state objectives. For instance, the National Common Minimum Programme (NCMP) of 2004 said, “Public sector banks will be given full managerial autonomy.” It further said, “The UPA government is committed to a strong and effective public sector whose social objectives are met by its commercial functioning… The UPA is pledged to devolve full managerial and commercial autonomy to successful, profit-making companies operating in a competitive environment.”
The important features of the Fifteen Point Programme and the Sachar report unmistakably militate against the magna carta of the UPA Government. This has happened because the UPA functionaries are unable to distinguish problems with solutions. The biggest problem that the Muslim community faces is the cleric; the UPA sees a solution in him! The NCMP is just one of the casualties.
The Left, which greatly influenced the NCMP, is not screaming. Nor are the champions of liberalization, who normally berate the measures which increase the size and scope of the government. The so-called liberal Muslims are also silent as the mad mullahs get empowered.
The author works with The Political and Business Daily:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:The article is published and pasted with the consent of the author who has sent to me at my request on inter net .I express curtsy for the same. :rolleyes:
A choice to have any meaning must be an educated one, it has to be made fully considering the pros and cons of ones decision. The effect of the decision on not just ones personal life but also on the society as a whole has to be considered.
Unfortunately most people who convert are not educated enough to make such an assessment. These are the people who think Sonia Gandhi is Mohandas Gandhi's daughter or Indira Gandhi was the empress of India. The decision made by such people in their haste or by falling prey to some easy allurements of the missionaries will have an adverse long term effect on the society. This, under no circumstances, should not be allowed. It is, as the citizens of India, not just our responsibility but also our right to prevent such events.
Besides being a Hindu I should have an equal right to defend my faith. The BJP is a right wing Hindu party. The people who voted it to power did so with full knowledge of this fact. If now the party feels a need to protect its religion from foreigners, it should not become an issue. The right to convert people cannot be a fundamental human right. If the missionaries insist on conversions then it is but natural that Hindus will retaliate. All it will achieve in doing is to lead India down the path of civil war.
Education, on the other hand, is the key. It is also a more natural and therefore a more rational option. The more educated a caste is, more money they will have and therefore more acceptable they will seem to the society.
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